When watching 12 Angry Men who comes closest to your own style of communication? Who is farthest? Remember to comment on another classmate's response. Posts are due by 3 p.m. on Monday. Enjoy your weekend.
I think that I am a mixture of 5&8. I tend to be shy, sensitive, and reserved about what I say, yet if I have an opinion or am defending my view on something I am very outspoken and try to convince my listeners of my view. I use progression in my arguments like 8 does. I take things personally as 5 does which leads to me trying all the harder to get my point across. 8 thinks outside the box and the possibilities along with the facts. I like to base my opinions not just on facts as well and consider the possibilities or coincident that could have happened. 8 looks at all the different views before committing himself to one. I also do this, which I believe I do impart from my family. My family is really into strategy games and Sherlock Holmes mysteries, so whenever we approach a situation or have to ‘solve’ cases we go to with gusto and an open mind. On the other hand, when I am in situations where I feel incompetent compared to others or inferior I am very quiet and afraid to speak my mind. In such situations it is hard to make me open up. I am least like 10. I would never insult people as he does or rudely interrupt other people as they try to defend their opinions. One of my personal goals/opinions is to never gossip. To not talk about people when they are not there or say anything that I would not feel comfortable saying to their face. 10 is also very class conscious in his views which I am not. Being Chinese and experiencing firsthand the hurt caused by people teasing me about my ethnicity and how Americans are better than Chinese, I know that people who have grown up in the slums would not like being teased or insulted by the place of their birth. He does not listen to the opinions of others, but firmly believes only his. I am not uncaring or unfeeling as 10 seems to be. I listen to others and take in what they are saying.
After reviewing the 12 different communication styles of the twelve men, I think I am most like number 1, the foreman. He is sensitive, not very demanding, and passive aggressive, but yet trying to control the meeting. He doesn’t want to upset anyone so he let’s the guys say what they want to say about him although he just wants it go smoothly. I can relate to that because when I am in charge, either babysitting or some sports practice, all you want is for people to take you seriously and to listen. I am not very confrontational and try to avoid any tricky situations. I want to please both sides of the party. Number 1 is trying to get everyone to go around and say their opinions, but some of the other men over power him, which I know is very frustrating. He hasn’t done too much speaking, so I am not sure in what others way I can relate to him. I think the men I am most different from are 5 and 7. I am different from 5 because I most always have something to say about a question so I wouldn’t ever “pass” my turn. I am really different from 7 because he is kind of a smart alleck saying snide comments and just wanting to get the decision over with. He is really selfish because his vote is counting towards the death of young man and all he wants to do is get to the baseball game. He also is obnoxious by coming up a nickname for 5 because he really thinks he is so cool that he can do that.
I agree with Bethany that 10 had one mind-set that he was right, and wouldn’t consider others ideas/ or reasons either. I also agree that I am not like him, because I do see everyone’s perceptive and am open to other suggestions.
When it comes to communication, I would like to say that I’m most like number four. When it comes down to the final decision, I like to look at logical facts and then decide what’s right. This reflects me well throughout school and class work. It is also what most teachers and other students may see of me. A logical person is what I’d like to believe I am, but even I know I’m not always like that. Sometimes, my feelings and emotions do get in way of my decisions. In that sense, I am like number eight. I don’t like logic when it comes down to what people can do. I believe people are flawed. I also believe that people can never achieve perfection, but that doesn’t mean we should strive for it. I agree with number eight when he says that “people can be wrong.” As for who I am not, I would say that I am most unlike number three. Now, when I say that I’m unlike number three, I’m only unlike him in only one area. However, I believe that one quality about him makes him vastly different from me. Number three has a very narrow view on what is a man. He seems to believe that every male should be tough and courageous and have all the qualities of a stereotypical male of that period. I don’t agree with that idea. To be a human means to live life as best as one can. A man doesn’t have to have a macho character as shown by number two. Despite our differences, I have to say that I do carry number three’s pessimistic attitude. It’s not that I don’t like being happy, it’s just that there’s always so much that happens in one’s life that can make one very sad. Like Bethany, I’m Chinese as well. From time to time, my friends and I would often joke about my ethnicity and my racial status. Sometimes it got serious. Eventually, I started questioning why my face was different from everybody else’s. In that sense I also dislike what number ten sees in this case. I’ve seen a lot of racial prejudice during my childhood. When my parents first moved to the states, they lived in the bustling city of Chicago. In Chicago, they grew to dislike and eventually hate black people because of all the threats that were thrown towards them. I was told once that someone had threatened to kill my dad. My parents eventually built up an everlasting hate towards the black community because of those years. I don’t blame them, but I strive to not be the same. For one, I have traveled around more and I know that everyone is human and like number eight says, people can be wrong. It has been one of my life goals to try and accept everyone for who they are and not base everyone on stereotypes. This town has been a great help for that. The welcoming community has even remedied most of the hatred that our family once held. Because I want to accept people as who they are I would say that I’m unlike number ten, but at the same time I can see why number ten is who he is. Perhaps at some time in his life, the people living in the slums hurt him deeply and he can’t forgive them for that.
Out of all the 12 men in the movie, “Twelve Angry Men,” I think my style of communicating is a mixture of 1 and 8. I’m more like one because I don’t like to order people around. I like to guide people, show them what we should be doing and let them get there on their own. I’m also like one because I tend to think of people’s feelings as well. I hate to make people angry so I usually try to avoid doing or saying anything that could upset someone else in the room. I’m similar to number 8 in the fact that he’s not quick to judge. I always try to find the good in people, which is exactly what number is doing. Number 8 seems to be the only one who truly realizes how big a situation this is! Their vote sends a man to death or keeps him alive! Number 8 wants to make sure they have the exactly correct vote before they decide a mans fate. Of all characters I am least like 7 and 10. 7 passes of a serious situation by joking around and not really caring. Number 7 focuses on this baseball game he must get to. He’s rather kill an innocent man than miss this game! Number 10 is very rude and mean. Number ten is very quick to judge, almost the opposite of number 8. He doesn’t believe that matter needs to be discussed at all. He is certain this man is guilty no matter what. He’s very narrow minded of the matter whereas I always try to stay open minded in arguments.
IN response to Bethany: I agree that number 8 thinks outside the box, he considers all his facts and points of view before making a decision. And you make a good points of what he says "people can be wrong." This really shows his personality. He knows we make mistakes. The woman who saw him through the window could have been wrong about what was happening in the apartment. The man downstairs could have heard a chair dropping not the man. We're only human and that means we can never know what truly happened. So we must look at every angle of the situation before we make our final decisions.
I think that its hard to tell which person has the most similar way of communicating as me just because I don't think I have seen enough of the movie to be able to tell that. So far I would guess that probably juror 8 communicates most how I would like to communicate, because he is clear and he stands up for what he believes in and he also tries to be fair about what he's saying. I think I often am a little less prone to want to compromise, but to a certain extent #8 doesn't like to compromise either. I think that I am least like juror 10 because I don't think I would ever be that rude to someone because they want to go over the facts one more time and make sure they are doing something right. I also don't think I communicate like 10 because I wouldn't ever say , "We don't owe him a thing!" just because he is from the slums and because he is an eighteen year old. I also don't think that I am as out spoken and juror 10 is in what he is thinking, and usually I think a little bit more than he seems to be thinking before he speaks. I think it is interesting that Bethany chose similar people who have similar communication styles to her and who have different communication styles. I think to a certain extent #8 and #10 are people who stuck out and who we know the the most about and can compare ourselves to, at least that's what I found.
All Twelve men not surprisingly have very different types of communication considering all the different types of backgrounds and personalities one would expect that from such a diverse group. I would have to say my communication style is most like number 8 with a few characteristics of number 5. I would much rather listen to what everyone else has to say rather then speak for myself, if I did speak if would be short and modest rather sensitive and reserved of what to say. Shy of what kinds of reactions I might get from my opinion. Much like number five’s style of communication. Where he passes without stating an argument for the poor boy at risk. Most times taking it personal to get my point across clearer. When it comes to speaking my arguments and my opinion I think I am most like number 8. I am not one to only think of what is said to have happened. I am more interested in the other possibilities that could make the argument in this case the trial different in any way. I always keep an open mind to what could have been. Much like number 8 is doing he is looking at different views and perspectives of the case before concluding that it is one thing or another, which is to me the only fair way to approach a trial like this one. I think my style of communication is most different then number 3. I personally from experience think that going in to a room with a pessimistic attitude is setting yourself up for failure. I am not one to come across rudely, in the case number three does. Which I think makes the other people at the table seem to not appreciate the one sided opinion. Not only the selfish one-sided opinions it is the aggression that comes behind his thoughts that really turn people off. I try and hope that this is not the type of communication I pursue.
I agree with Bethany when she says that number ten has made his decision of whether the boy is guilty or not. I am not like number ten, he has no intention of listening to other peoples perspective keeping himself from being informed, which is to me a poor characteristic to have as a person.
From what I have seen of 12 Angry Men so far, I have seen a wide variety of styles of communication from the different jurors. Styles range from the force brusqueness of juror #3 to the levelheaded logics and empathy of juror #8. I would say my own style of communication is most like juror #1. Juror #1 has a calm and assertive way of communicating. He sees an order in most everything, and when the order is disrupted, as seen during the film, he feels compelled to try to restore the order and logically assist the group. Juror #1 also gets sort of fed up when juror #3 tells him to forget the order of speaking time. #1 asks # 3 if “he would like to sit at the head of the table?” and is clearly upset at the questioning of his authority. I find that I have also been known to communicate in that style, getting defensive at an abandonment of my terms. The juror in 12 Angry Men, with whom I share nothing when it comes to communication skills, is juror #2. He is meek, and has no real opinion on the case when he is asked what he thought of the proceedings thus far. He doesn’t really assert himself in any way, which I do, and doesn’t say much when others talk or discuss in the movie. I like to put in my opinion, and assert myself when it comes to discussions. I am also unlike #3 though, because I am not necessarily overly rude about my interjections, and I don’t verbally bully people, as seen in the movie, when they disagree with my points.
I agree with what Bethany said about jurors #5 and #8. I also think that #5 takes things personally and is quite sensitive regarding the whole background of the accused boy. I also agree that #8 is thinking more intelligently about the whole case, rather than the isolated facts which the others only seem to grasp.
I try to be a very compromising person. With any issue I do my best to consider all sides represented, and do my best to use logic to arrive at the right solution. In that sense I’m like number four, who presents himself as a logical thinker. However no one can be completely logical without being influenced by their feelings, as number 8 was. Number 8 is also a very logical thinker, but is the only one who does not convict the boy right off the bat, demonstrating a strong sense of moral responsibility to take things seriously both logically and emotionally. In that sense I’m more like number eight. I not only use all facts available but also my moral intuition to make decisions. I agree with Sammy, out of the 12 men I’m least like 7 and 10. Their mode of carrying out such a great responsibility suggests extreme selfishness and maybe stupidity. Like Sammy said, number ten is quick to judge and number 7 would kill a man before he would miss his baseball game, two qualities I am glad I do not have. Their myopic view of characterizing impoverished people as violent from the start without giving them a fair discussion is something I would never do. I agree with several of the previous posts, particularly Bethany and Carolyn that 10 really has his mind made up; he refuses to take into consideration any other views.
I agree with Rita when she said that it is much to early to decide which character mostly resembles myself. So far the character who I think is most like me is number eight. This man was the only one at the table who gave the boy the benefit of the doubt. He also uses chain of reasoning while arguing which I do a lot. Number eight also takes his personal feelings in the matter into account, by saving the boy at the very beginning. He gave the accused benefit of the doubt and just wanted to explore into the matter further to find strong proof before sentencing a child to death, while many of the other men voted guilty because they wished to get out of the jury room quickly. Another character I feel that resembles myself is number six. We haven't seen much of him other than that he voted guilty but then when they all went around the table looking for proof, he said he was just looking for someone with the "motive for murder." This way of thinking is what I would do too, and is calm and logical. Number One and I are also alike just because I am naturally drawn to being the mediator, the person who keeps everyone calm and organized. I am definitely more like Number Eight though, because I would become too involved and not be able to handle Number One's position and not be as passive-aggressive.
Although I agree with Rita and Lillian that it is to early to decide which character most resembles myself, in a way it is also the easiest time to identify with one character or another. The broader our image of a character is, and the less specific information we know about each character, the easier it is to relate to them. I feel I am most like juror 4, 8, and, in a way, 3. I am like juror 4 because I am very methodical and I try to be reasoned and logical in most of my arguments and decisions. Juror 4 is similar in that he tries to relay on evidence, make no assumptions and create valid conclusions from the information presented to him. I am like juror 8 in that I do not necessarily go with the flow, that is to say I don’t try to be something I’m not or let myself be swayed easily by the decisions of those around me. Juror 8 also seems methodical and wary of presumption. When he takes out the knife he acquired that matches the murder weapon he shows that he is also investigative, and enquires curiously into the cause of phenomenon and occurrences. I again feel I am similar in this regard as I often try to understand why things happen, where effects come from, and what is going on beneath the surface of something. Finally, I am, in a way like juror 3. Juror three, though admittedly to a fault, relies on his own experiences to make conclusions, and is sentimental about emotional issues. I am similar in this way although I try not to carry bias against others, but rather use my experiences to educate myself about new situations, which, in a way is what 3 is doing, deducing that like his son, this boy is a scoundrel. I am least like juror 2 and 7. Both don’t try or bother to understand or formulate their opinions and neither is outspoken about what they believe in. I am a person of strong conviction and a loud voice. I am not easily quitted and can be very stubborn when being blocked from expressing and explaining my views. As I said, I agree with Rita and Lillian that it is early in the movie to make to many connections, but it is also easier when we know the characters more broadly.
From what I have seen of “12 Angry Men” the different jurors all have very unique styles of communication. They range from rude and obnoxious to quiet and meek. The juror who's style of communication is most similar to my own is juror number 6. Juror number 6 has done a lot of listening and when he was called on he gave his opinion. He does not get involved in the little skirmishes that take place but absorbs all the information going around. Juror number 6 gave his opinion on the guilt of the accused and then backed it up with information. He said that he looks for a motive in these sorts of crimes and that there was definitively a motive because the boys father had beaten him. I like to think that I would not get involved in any bickering and would have something reasonable to say if I were put in his situation. The juror who I share the least in common with when it comes to communication techniques is juror number 10. Juror number 10 is a grumpy old man who is very rude and very crabby. He has a cold so he is probably more grumpy than usual but he goes so far as insulting the other jurors. Juror number 10 makes no attempt to get along with the other jurors and must make it so hard on the other jurors who have to deal with him. If I were in his situation I would try to hear other peoples opinions on the case with an open mind and would be respectful of the other people. This is the opposite of juror number 10 who is convinced he is right.
I agree with Lilian about juror number 6, he stays calm and is looking at the case logically. I also agree with Sammy about juror number 7 who is fine putting a man to death just so that he can go to a baseball game. The lack of morals is astounding, but notice how he does not mention anything about meeting someone at the game.
I think that, as far as the jurors go, I am most like juror number 9. He was open to number 8’s idea to go over the situation again and doesn’t really care what others think of him. I also don’t think I could just sentence a boy to death so easily. He doesn’t talk all that often but when he does, his points are very valuable. There is one way that I am not like him however. He says at one point, “Do you think you were born with a monopoly on the truth?” to another juror who is acting very self-centered. I would not have been able to think of such a witty comeback (or at least say it as eloquently). Chances are, I would think of something like that to say the day after or at some other time when it didn’t count. I don’t think I am like jurors 3, 8, or 10. Though these men are not all arguing for the same side, I believe that they all have something in common which is their forwardness and determination. For jurors 3 and 10, I just don’t think I am as outspoken or as commanding of attention. However much I would like to say that I am like number 8, I am not. I don’t know if I would have the organization in my mind that he seems to have. If I had the sort of proof and information that he has (like with the knife), I probably wouldn’t be able to contain myself making my point come across as rushed and unclear, ultimately convincing no one. I don’t like being a leader, so that cuts juror number 1 out of the picture immediately. But I’m not so meek and like a follower that I would be anything like juror number 2 either. In many ways juror number 2 bothers me the most out of all the men because he obviously doesn’t care and is so naïve. I think it’s really funny reading over some other responses on who people think they are most like. Funny because many of them say exactly who I would’ve called them as well. Especially Oren, Ziqi, Lilian, and Carl. And I’m not just saying that, I honestly thought exactly those characters for each person. Rita mentions that #8 and #10 have been featured the most, which is why so many people are relating to them. It would be interesting to do this assignment again after we get to know more characters better, and see if we can find some more accurate comparisons than just with #8 especially.
I believe that I am most like number eleven. Eleven is always very precise and exact, which are qualities that I share. I, much like eleven, look at things precisely. He also asks questions in order to find answers. I do the same thing. When I don’t know what the answer is, I ask. Finally, eleven is very serious. Unlike seven and twelve, he doesn’t distract himself from the task at hand. I, much like eleven, am very serious. I do, however, have the stubbornness of number three. I very rarely admit when I am wrong, and it pains me to do so. Number three acts the same way; we are both very stubborn. I am least like number seven. When the jury members are attempting to finish a task at hand, number seven is slacking off and making jokes. I am not like this. I prefer to take a situation seriously and solve a problem. Second, seven seems to prioritize baseball over the jury. I would always prioritize the jury, even if I was a baseball fan. I agree with double Chi’s comparison to number four. Both of the Chi’s and number four are logical and think their way through a problem. They don’t let emotions get in the way. I also agree with Bethany and Sammy that Eight thinks outside the box, and carefully considers every fact and detail of the case. He is determined not to execute the young man without first examining every last detail of the case.
From what I have seen so far, I am most like juror number 6, but I am also a little bit like 7. Juror number 6 isn’t rude like the some of the other jurors, but he starts out as a follower believing that the boy did commit the crime. Unlike some of the others who believe the boy is guilty he considers the flip side and wonders whether what juror number 8 is putting forward actually could be right. I would probably think the boy to be guilty when the evidence was first put against him, as he did, but I would also consider both sides. He sits and listens at first and then displays what he thinks. This is a method of communication that I would most likely take part in. He is mild mannered, but has a definite problem when 3 keeps insulting 9. I think I would behave similarly when put in a similar situation. While I think I am most like juror number 6 and I am also a little like juror number 7. He is an avid baseball fan who has already made up his mind about the case and keeps hinting at and saying that he would rather be at the game. If I have my mind made up on something I just want to be done with as he does. I am also like him because I love my baseball and would much rather be chilling at a ball game. I would say I am most unlike juror number 3 because he refuses to consider the opinion of juror number 8, does a lot of yelling, and insults anybody who disagrees with him or says anything that contradicts what he thinks. This is not how I like to communicate because it isn’t how I like to do it and because he is way more vocal than I would be.
I agree with Carl because we both said we were most like the same juror and like what he said about him. He provides solid evidence to back up what he thinks, but also considers the other options. He looks for a motive for murder, which is very important in a case such as this. I like how juror number six always remained to stay calm and not get involved when people started their own little skirmishes.
When comparing myself to one of the twelve jurors in Twelve Angry Men, my style of communication is most alike juror numbers 1 and 11. Although I don’t take the reins in important situations, I am usually sensitive and passive-aggressive. Like Sammy stated, I try not to force people to do things or think things, but rather point them in the right direction that may open up ideas or may sway their thoughts. Along with that, my clothing is not extravagant and it isn’t often that I dress up, unless it’s a major event. So far, I’ve seen that juror one is more observant and less intervening. He seems to like when others throw out ideas and opinions in place of him. Claudia said that he wants to please both sides of the party and I agree with that statement. I think I would want to satisfy them and not displease them. He wants to be liked, which I am familiar with. The other juror that I can compare myself with is juror 11, who is careful and precise. Like I said earlier, I don't tend to speak my own voice, but tend to agree with others if it is logical and pertains to the argument or conversation. Another thing that juror eleven does throughout the first part of the movie is ask questions. Not only that, but he asks questions that everybody has concurred with previously and it kind of sparks an idea that the other jurors haven't thought about before. He connected things to prove his thought and used chain of reasoning. The juror that I am the least alike is probably juror 3. He is very pessimistic and denies wanting to talk about feelings. He is very rude and essentially is the leader of the group that thinks the boy is guilty. The thought that the man won't even let up or even consider a coincidence is really strange and I don't relate to that at all. I may defend myself when I do speak up about my opinions, but not to that extent.
I agree with Ellen about that fact that it seems strange that they are so eager to put him on the chair. I think her point is valid that when that juror speaks, he is reasonable and considers all the things that could've been true.
Couldn't get any wi-fi because I was on a class field trip then had drive time. Sorry it was late.
I think that I am most like juror number 4. I like to find logical answers to my questions and back them up with facts. Often when making a point I give my argument in list form. I am different from Juror 4 because unlike him I do sweat and do in have emotions. #4 doesn't seem to have any discernible human characteristics and seems almost like a robot. I am not like him in this respect. However we share the same type of temperament when it comes to arguments and have similar logical trains of thought. I think I am also like juror #7 because I often try not to face the argument and instead makes jokes and fool around. I often have trouble focusing on the task at hand. For example this blog post is late because I didn't focus in class and forgot to write down my homework (sorry about that). Other jurors that I feel I connect with are the juror who is a working man (#6?). I think he has a valuable part to add to the conversation but waits until he has formed a complete thought in his head before saying it.
I agree with Liam that, like juror #7 if I have my mind made up about something I just want to get it over with and not keep discussing the details .
It's hard to say who exactly I feel like I am most like because everyone in this world has a different personality and it's hard to compare yourself to being just like another person. I feel like the Juror I am most like though is number 1. I love to keep things in order and to have a plan. He also tries to do his best and tries to make everything fair. He also wants everything to go well and for nothing to get too out of hand. Even so, I don't think I could be as patient and observing as he is because he almost doesn't talk the whole time. I think I would want to get my belief out there too. I also think that I am like Number 6. He is very respectful to the people around him and isn't afraid to stand up for himself or others. He also is very understanding in listening to other jurors. He cares about what others have to say and makes sure he has lots of information before setting up his belief. I don't think I could be clever or put myself out there enough to be like Juror Number 8. Juror 3 and Juror 10 I think are the most different than me. I could never stand up and shout such racist comments to a group like they do.They also are so strict and strong in what they believe that they disrespect anyone who opposes them. they tend to think about themselves a lot more than others. I am also way different than Number 7. I cannot see myself simply not caring about a persons life. He again is very self centered. I really like what Ellen said about how people you can really see people being like who they claim to be like. Henry and Matthew are very logical like Juror Number 4 and I can easily see Oren as a Number 1. I think it would be awesome to try to have our own Twelve Angry Men skit. It would be interesting to put certain people in certain parts to see how we actually feel communicating in that certain way. I think if we actually communicated and presented ourselves as a certain person, we could really see how we personally would either be similar and different than that person and whether we would say something different in the same situation.
It's hard to say which juror I'm exactly like, but I feel like I'm the most like Juror 2. Juror 2 has no real opinion. He is always going along with what the majority wants. I think I would be the same way. I wouldn't really know which side to take, so I would probably go with the majority. When I'm around my friends, I am loud and social, but around strangers, I am shy and quiet. In an argument, I would be following after the majority of the people's opinions. If I was trying to backup my opinions, my arguments wouldn't be logical. Also, I'm not the biggest fan of baseball or any sports. If I were to be on jury, It would only be once and I wouldn't have that great of experience. I think it's easier to decide which juror I am the least like. I think Juror 10 is the least like me. He was very disrespectful especially towards 9 and I have a great amount of respect for old people. I also think he was very rude to everyone. I wouldn't ever do that. I would respect every single fellow jurors. It's their opinions and sometimes it's nice knowing people's different opinions. When I know others' opinions, I am able to form my opinion better. People like Juror 10 are very hard for me to have respect for because they are so rude. I agree with Henry. Sometimes when I know my opinion, I will just want to get the argument over with. I think that once an argument is nine to three, there shouldn't be anymore arguing. There is no point in arguing on about all the small details when it's obvious that someone is guilty or not guilty. I don't have that much patience for long arguments.
Personally, I would like to consider myself a mix of Juror 4, and Juror 12. I prefer to lead, rather than go along with the majority, and I prefer process analysis and logic to emotional appeals. I admired 4's ability to remain detached from the case, and consider it objectively rather than from a punitive, or sympathetic standpoint.
I'd also like to think of myself as somewhat akin to 12, who uses humor to try to ease the tension, and move the discussion along. One of the best ways to make people think is to entertain them at the same time. Using deliberately absurd arguments,and keeping the tone of a discussion from become confrontational is a useful skill. I also liked the fact that he was willing to listen to both sides of the debate, and didn't feel like he had to keep a position for the sake of his pride. However, I wasn't as impressed with the fact that he didn't present his own arguments, relying on others to argue the case.
Oh we wil... Enjoy YOUR weekend!
ReplyDeleteI think that I am a mixture of 5&8. I tend to be shy, sensitive, and reserved about what I say, yet if I have an opinion or am defending my view on something I am very outspoken and try to convince my listeners of my view. I use progression in my arguments like 8 does. I take things personally as 5 does which leads to me trying all the harder to get my point across. 8 thinks outside the box and the possibilities along with the facts. I like to base my opinions not just on facts as well and consider the possibilities or coincident that could have happened. 8 looks at all the different views before committing himself to one. I also do this, which I believe I do impart from my family. My family is really into strategy games and Sherlock Holmes mysteries, so whenever we approach a situation or have to ‘solve’ cases we go to with gusto and an open mind. On the other hand, when I am in situations where I feel incompetent compared to others or inferior I am very quiet and afraid to speak my mind. In such situations it is hard to make me open up. I am least like 10. I would never insult people as he does or rudely interrupt other people as they try to defend their opinions. One of my personal goals/opinions is to never gossip. To not talk about people when they are not there or say anything that I would not feel comfortable saying to their face. 10 is also very class conscious in his views which I am not. Being Chinese and experiencing firsthand the hurt caused by people teasing me about my ethnicity and how Americans are better than Chinese, I know that people who have grown up in the slums would not like being teased or insulted by the place of their birth. He does not listen to the opinions of others, but firmly believes only his. I am not uncaring or unfeeling as 10 seems to be. I listen to others and take in what they are saying.
ReplyDeleteAfter reviewing the 12 different communication styles of the twelve men, I think I am most like number 1, the foreman. He is sensitive, not very demanding, and passive aggressive, but yet trying to control the meeting. He doesn’t want to upset anyone so he let’s the guys say what they want to say about him although he just wants it go smoothly. I can relate to that because when I am in charge, either babysitting or some sports practice, all you want is for people to take you seriously and to listen. I am not very confrontational and try to avoid any tricky situations. I want to please both sides of the party. Number 1 is trying to get everyone to go around and say their opinions, but some of the other men over power him, which I know is very frustrating. He hasn’t done too much speaking, so I am not sure in what others way I can relate to him. I think the men I am most different from are 5 and 7. I am different from 5 because I most always have something to say about a question so I wouldn’t ever “pass” my turn. I am really different from 7 because he is kind of a smart alleck saying snide comments and just wanting to get the decision over with. He is really selfish because his vote is counting towards the death of young man and all he wants to do is get to the baseball game. He also is obnoxious by coming up a nickname for 5 because he really thinks he is so cool that he can do that.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Bethany that 10 had one mind-set that he was right, and wouldn’t consider others ideas/ or reasons either. I also agree that I am not like him, because I do see everyone’s perceptive and am open to other suggestions.
When it comes to communication, I would like to say that I’m most like number four. When it comes down to the final decision, I like to look at logical facts and then decide what’s right. This reflects me well throughout school and class work. It is also what most teachers and other students may see of me. A logical person is what I’d like to believe I am, but even I know I’m not always like that. Sometimes, my feelings and emotions do get in way of my decisions. In that sense, I am like number eight. I don’t like logic when it comes down to what people can do. I believe people are flawed. I also believe that people can never achieve perfection, but that doesn’t mean we should strive for it. I agree with number eight when he says that “people can be wrong.”
ReplyDeleteAs for who I am not, I would say that I am most unlike number three. Now, when I say that I’m unlike number three, I’m only unlike him in only one area. However, I believe that one quality about him makes him vastly different from me. Number three has a very narrow view on what is a man. He seems to believe that every male should be tough and courageous and have all the qualities of a stereotypical male of that period. I don’t agree with that idea. To be a human means to live life as best as one can. A man doesn’t have to have a macho character as shown by number two. Despite our differences, I have to say that I do carry number three’s pessimistic attitude. It’s not that I don’t like being happy, it’s just that there’s always so much that happens in one’s life that can make one very sad.
Like Bethany, I’m Chinese as well. From time to time, my friends and I would often joke about my ethnicity and my racial status. Sometimes it got serious. Eventually, I started questioning why my face was different from everybody else’s. In that sense I also dislike what number ten sees in this case. I’ve seen a lot of racial prejudice during my childhood. When my parents first moved to the states, they lived in the bustling city of Chicago. In Chicago, they grew to dislike and eventually hate black people because of all the threats that were thrown towards them. I was told once that someone had threatened to kill my dad. My parents eventually built up an everlasting hate towards the black community because of those years. I don’t blame them, but I strive to not be the same. For one, I have traveled around more and I know that everyone is human and like number eight says, people can be wrong. It has been one of my life goals to try and accept everyone for who they are and not base everyone on stereotypes. This town has been a great help for that. The welcoming community has even remedied most of the hatred that our family once held. Because I want to accept people as who they are I would say that I’m unlike number ten, but at the same time I can see why number ten is who he is. Perhaps at some time in his life, the people living in the slums hurt him deeply and he can’t forgive them for that.
Out of all the 12 men in the movie, “Twelve Angry Men,” I think my style of communicating is a mixture of 1 and 8. I’m more like one because I don’t like to order people around. I like to guide people, show them what we should be doing and let them get there on their own. I’m also like one because I tend to think of people’s feelings as well. I hate to make people angry so I usually try to avoid doing or saying anything that could upset someone else in the room. I’m similar to number 8 in the fact that he’s not quick to judge. I always try to find the good in people, which is exactly what number is doing. Number 8 seems to be the only one who truly realizes how big a situation this is! Their vote sends a man to death or keeps him alive! Number 8 wants to make sure they have the exactly correct vote before they decide a mans fate.
ReplyDeleteOf all characters I am least like 7 and 10. 7 passes of a serious situation by joking around and not really caring. Number 7 focuses on this baseball game he must get to. He’s rather kill an innocent man than miss this game! Number 10 is very rude and mean. Number ten is very quick to judge, almost the opposite of number 8. He doesn’t believe that matter needs to be discussed at all. He is certain this man is guilty no matter what. He’s very narrow minded of the matter whereas I always try to stay open minded in arguments.
IN response to Bethany:
I agree that number 8 thinks outside the box, he considers all his facts and points of view before making a decision. And you make a good points of what he says "people can be wrong." This really shows his personality. He knows we make mistakes. The woman who saw him through the window could have been wrong about what was happening in the apartment. The man downstairs could have heard a chair dropping not the man. We're only human and that means we can never know what truly happened. So we must look at every angle of the situation before we make our final decisions.
I think that its hard to tell which person has the most similar way of communicating as me just because I don't think I have seen enough of the movie to be able to tell that. So far I would guess that probably juror 8 communicates most how I would like to communicate, because he is clear and he stands up for what he believes in and he also tries to be fair about what he's saying. I think I often am a little less prone to want to compromise, but to a certain extent #8 doesn't like to compromise either. I think that I am least like juror 10 because I don't think I would ever be that rude to someone because they want to go over the facts one more time and make sure they are doing something right. I also don't think I communicate like 10 because I wouldn't ever say , "We don't owe him a thing!" just because he is from the slums and because he is an eighteen year old. I also don't think that I am as out spoken and juror 10 is in what he is thinking, and usually I think a little bit more than he seems to be thinking before he speaks.
ReplyDeleteI think it is interesting that Bethany chose similar people who have similar communication styles to her and who have different communication styles. I think to a certain extent #8 and #10 are people who stuck out and who we know the the most about and can compare ourselves to, at least that's what I found.
All Twelve men not surprisingly have very different types of communication considering all the different types of backgrounds and personalities one would expect that from such a diverse group. I would have to say my communication style is most like number 8 with a few characteristics of number 5. I would much rather listen to what everyone else has to say rather then speak for myself, if I did speak if would be short and modest rather sensitive and reserved of what to say. Shy of what kinds of reactions I might get from my opinion. Much like number five’s style of communication. Where he passes without stating an argument for the poor boy at risk. Most times taking it personal to get my point across clearer.
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to speaking my arguments and my opinion I think I am most like number 8. I am not one to only think of what is said to have happened. I am more interested in the other possibilities that could make the argument in this case the trial different in any way. I always keep an open mind to what could have been. Much like number 8 is doing he is looking at different views and perspectives of the case before concluding that it is one thing or another, which is to me the only fair way to approach a trial like this one.
I think my style of communication is most different then number 3. I personally from experience think that going in to a room with a pessimistic attitude is setting yourself up for failure. I am not one to come across rudely, in the case number three does. Which I think makes the other people at the table seem to not appreciate the one sided opinion. Not only the selfish one-sided opinions it is the aggression that comes behind his thoughts that really turn people off. I try and hope that this is not the type of communication I pursue.
I agree with Bethany when she says that number ten has made his decision of whether the boy is guilty or not. I am not like number ten, he has no intention of listening to other peoples perspective keeping himself from being informed, which is to me a poor characteristic to have as a person.
From what I have seen of 12 Angry Men so far, I have seen a wide variety of styles of communication from the different jurors. Styles range from the force brusqueness of juror #3 to the levelheaded logics and empathy of juror #8. I would say my own style of communication is most like juror #1. Juror #1 has a calm and assertive way of communicating. He sees an order in most everything, and when the order is disrupted, as seen during the film, he feels compelled to try to restore the order and logically assist the group. Juror #1 also gets sort of fed up when juror #3 tells him to forget the order of speaking time. #1 asks # 3 if “he would like to sit at the head of the table?” and is clearly upset at the questioning of his authority. I find that I have also been known to communicate in that style, getting defensive at an abandonment of my terms.
ReplyDeleteThe juror in 12 Angry Men, with whom I share nothing when it comes to communication skills, is juror #2. He is meek, and has no real opinion on the case when he is asked what he thought of the proceedings thus far. He doesn’t really assert himself in any way, which I do, and doesn’t say much when others talk or discuss in the movie. I like to put in my opinion, and assert myself when it comes to discussions. I am also unlike #3 though, because I am not necessarily overly rude about my interjections, and I don’t verbally bully people, as seen in the movie, when they disagree with my points.
I agree with what Bethany said about jurors #5 and #8. I also think that #5 takes things personally and is quite sensitive regarding the whole background of the accused boy. I also agree that #8 is thinking more intelligently about the whole case, rather than the isolated facts which the others only seem to grasp.
I try to be a very compromising person. With any issue I do my best to consider all sides represented, and do my best to use logic to arrive at the right solution. In that sense I’m like number four, who presents himself as a logical thinker. However no one can be completely logical without being influenced by their feelings, as number 8 was. Number 8 is also a very logical thinker, but is the only one who does not convict the boy right off the bat, demonstrating a strong sense of moral responsibility to take things seriously both logically and emotionally. In that sense I’m more like number eight. I not only use all facts available but also my moral intuition to make decisions. I agree with Sammy, out of the 12 men I’m least like 7 and 10. Their mode of carrying out such a great responsibility suggests extreme selfishness and maybe stupidity. Like Sammy said, number ten is quick to judge and number 7 would kill a man before he would miss his baseball game, two qualities I am glad I do not have. Their myopic view of characterizing impoverished people as violent from the start without giving them a fair discussion is something I would never do. I agree with several of the previous posts, particularly Bethany and Carolyn that 10 really has his mind made up; he refuses to take into consideration any other views.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Rita when she said that it is much to early to decide which character mostly resembles myself. So far the character who I think is most like me is number eight. This man was the only one at the table who gave the boy the benefit of the doubt. He also uses chain of reasoning while arguing which I do a lot. Number eight also takes his personal feelings in the matter into account, by saving the boy at the very beginning. He gave the accused benefit of the doubt and just wanted to explore into the matter further to find strong proof before sentencing a child to death, while many of the other men voted guilty because they wished to get out of the jury room quickly.
ReplyDeleteAnother character I feel that resembles myself is number six. We haven't seen much of him other than that he voted guilty but then when they all went around the table looking for proof, he said he was just looking for someone with the "motive for murder." This way of thinking is what I would do too, and is calm and logical. Number One and I are also alike just because I am naturally drawn to being the mediator, the person who keeps everyone calm and organized. I am definitely more like Number Eight though, because I would become too involved and not be able to handle Number One's position and not be as passive-aggressive.
Although I agree with Rita and Lillian that it is to early to decide which character most resembles myself, in a way it is also the easiest time to identify with one character or another. The broader our image of a character is, and the less specific information we know about each character, the easier it is to relate to them. I feel I am most like juror 4, 8, and, in a way, 3. I am like juror 4 because I am very methodical and I try to be reasoned and logical in most of my arguments and decisions. Juror 4 is similar in that he tries to relay on evidence, make no assumptions and create valid conclusions from the information presented to him. I am like juror 8 in that I do not necessarily go with the flow, that is to say I don’t try to be something I’m not or let myself be swayed easily by the decisions of those around me. Juror 8 also seems methodical and wary of presumption. When he takes out the knife he acquired that matches the murder weapon he shows that he is also investigative, and enquires curiously into the cause of phenomenon and occurrences. I again feel I am similar in this regard as I often try to understand why things happen, where effects come from, and what is going on beneath the surface of something. Finally, I am, in a way like juror 3. Juror three, though admittedly to a fault, relies on his own experiences to make conclusions, and is sentimental about emotional issues. I am similar in this way although I try not to carry bias against others, but rather use my experiences to educate myself about new situations, which, in a way is what 3 is doing, deducing that like his son, this boy is a scoundrel.
ReplyDeleteI am least like juror 2 and 7. Both don’t try or bother to understand or formulate their opinions and neither is outspoken about what they believe in. I am a person of strong conviction and a loud voice. I am not easily quitted and can be very stubborn when being blocked from expressing and explaining my views.
As I said, I agree with Rita and Lillian that it is early in the movie to make to many connections, but it is also easier when we know the characters more broadly.
From what I have seen of “12 Angry Men” the different jurors all have very unique styles of communication. They range from rude and obnoxious to quiet and meek. The juror who's style of communication is most similar to my own is juror number 6. Juror number 6 has done a lot of listening and when he was called on he gave his opinion. He does not get involved in the little skirmishes that take place but absorbs all the information going around. Juror number 6 gave his opinion on the guilt of the accused and then backed it up with information. He said that he looks for a motive in these sorts of crimes and that there was definitively a motive because the boys father had beaten him. I like to think that I would not get involved in any bickering and would have something reasonable to say if I were put in his situation.
ReplyDeleteThe juror who I share the least in common with when it comes to communication techniques is juror number 10. Juror number 10 is a grumpy old man who is very rude and very crabby. He has a cold so he is probably more grumpy than usual but he goes so far as insulting the other jurors. Juror number 10 makes no attempt to get along with the other jurors and must make it so hard on the other jurors who have to deal with him. If I were in his situation I would try to hear other peoples opinions on the case with an open mind and would be respectful of the other people. This is the opposite of juror number 10 who is convinced he is right.
I agree with Lilian about juror number 6, he stays calm and is looking at the case logically. I also agree with Sammy about juror number 7 who is fine putting a man to death just so that he can go to a baseball game. The lack of morals is astounding, but notice how he does not mention anything about meeting someone at the game.
I think that, as far as the jurors go, I am most like juror number 9. He was open to number 8’s idea to go over the situation again and doesn’t really care what others think of him. I also don’t think I could just sentence a boy to death so easily. He doesn’t talk all that often but when he does, his points are very valuable. There is one way that I am not like him however. He says at one point, “Do you think you were born with a monopoly on the truth?” to another juror who is acting very self-centered. I would not have been able to think of such a witty comeback (or at least say it as eloquently). Chances are, I would think of something like that to say the day after or at some other time when it didn’t count.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think I am like jurors 3, 8, or 10. Though these men are not all arguing for the same side, I believe that they all have something in common which is their forwardness and determination. For jurors 3 and 10, I just don’t think I am as outspoken or as commanding of attention. However much I would like to say that I am like number 8, I am not. I don’t know if I would have the organization in my mind that he seems to have. If I had the sort of proof and information that he has (like with the knife), I probably wouldn’t be able to contain myself making my point come across as rushed and unclear, ultimately convincing no one. I don’t like being a leader, so that cuts juror number 1 out of the picture immediately. But I’m not so meek and like a follower that I would be anything like juror number 2 either. In many ways juror number 2 bothers me the most out of all the men because he obviously doesn’t care and is so naïve.
I think it’s really funny reading over some other responses on who people think they are most like. Funny because many of them say exactly who I would’ve called them as well. Especially Oren, Ziqi, Lilian, and Carl. And I’m not just saying that, I honestly thought exactly those characters for each person. Rita mentions that #8 and #10 have been featured the most, which is why so many people are relating to them. It would be interesting to do this assignment again after we get to know more characters better, and see if we can find some more accurate comparisons than just with #8 especially.
I believe that I am most like number eleven. Eleven is always very precise and exact, which are qualities that I share. I, much like eleven, look at things precisely. He also asks questions in order to find answers. I do the same thing. When I don’t know what the answer is, I ask. Finally, eleven is very serious. Unlike seven and twelve, he doesn’t distract himself from the task at hand. I, much like eleven, am very serious. I do, however, have the stubbornness of number three. I very rarely admit when I am wrong, and it pains me to do so. Number three acts the same way; we are both very stubborn.
ReplyDeleteI am least like number seven. When the jury members are attempting to finish a task at hand, number seven is slacking off and making jokes. I am not like this. I prefer to take a situation seriously and solve a problem. Second, seven seems to prioritize baseball over the jury. I would always prioritize the jury, even if I was a baseball fan.
I agree with double Chi’s comparison to number four. Both of the Chi’s and number four are logical and think their way through a problem. They don’t let emotions get in the way. I also agree with Bethany and Sammy that Eight thinks outside the box, and carefully considers every fact and detail of the case. He is determined not to execute the young man without first examining every last detail of the case.
From what I have seen so far, I am most like juror number 6, but I am also a little bit like 7. Juror number 6 isn’t rude like the some of the other jurors, but he starts out as a follower believing that the boy did commit the crime. Unlike some of the others who believe the boy is guilty he considers the flip side and wonders whether what juror number 8 is putting forward actually could be right. I would probably think the boy to be guilty when the evidence was first put against him, as he did, but I would also consider both sides. He sits and listens at first and then displays what he thinks. This is a method of communication that I would most likely take part in. He is mild mannered, but has a definite problem when 3 keeps insulting 9. I think I would behave similarly when put in a similar situation. While I think I am most like juror number 6 and I am also a little like juror number 7. He is an avid baseball fan who has already made up his mind about the case and keeps hinting at and saying that he would rather be at the game. If I have my mind made up on something I just want to be done with as he does. I am also like him because I love my baseball and would much rather be chilling at a ball game. I would say I am most unlike juror number 3 because he refuses to consider the opinion of juror number 8, does a lot of yelling, and insults anybody who disagrees with him or says anything that contradicts what he thinks. This is not how I like to communicate because it isn’t how I like to do it and because he is way more vocal than I would be.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Carl because we both said we were most like the same juror and like what he said about him. He provides solid evidence to back up what he thinks, but also considers the other options. He looks for a motive for murder, which is very important in a case such as this. I like how juror number six always remained to stay calm and not get involved when people started their own little skirmishes.
ReplyDeleteWhen comparing myself to one of the twelve jurors in Twelve Angry Men, my style of communication is most alike juror numbers 1 and 11. Although I don’t take the reins in important situations, I am usually sensitive and passive-aggressive. Like Sammy stated, I try not to force people to do things or think things, but rather point them in the right direction that may open up ideas or may sway their thoughts. Along with that, my clothing is not extravagant and it isn’t often that I dress up, unless it’s a major event. So far, I’ve seen that juror one is more observant and less intervening. He seems to like when others throw out ideas and opinions in place of him. Claudia said that he wants to please both sides of the party and I agree with that statement. I think I would want to satisfy them and not displease them. He wants to be liked, which I am familiar with. The other juror that I can compare myself with is juror 11, who is careful and precise. Like I said earlier, I don't tend to speak my own voice, but tend to agree with others if it is logical and pertains to the argument or conversation. Another thing that juror eleven does throughout the first part of the movie is ask questions. Not only that, but he asks questions that everybody has concurred with previously and it kind of sparks an idea that the other jurors haven't thought about before. He connected things to prove his thought and used chain of reasoning. The juror that I am the least alike is probably juror 3. He is very pessimistic and denies wanting to talk about feelings. He is very rude and essentially is the leader of the group that thinks the boy is guilty. The thought that the man won't even let up or even consider a coincidence is really strange and I don't relate to that at all. I may defend myself when I do speak up about my opinions, but not to that extent.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ellen about that fact that it seems strange that they are so eager to put him on the chair. I think her point is valid that when that juror speaks, he is reasonable and considers all the things that could've been true.
Couldn't get any wi-fi because I was on a class field trip then had drive time. Sorry it was late.
I think that I am most like juror number 4. I like to find logical answers to my questions and back them up with facts. Often when making a point I give my argument in list form. I am different from Juror 4 because unlike him I do sweat and do in have emotions. #4 doesn't seem to have any discernible human characteristics and seems almost like a robot. I am not like him in this respect. However we share the same type of temperament when it comes to arguments and have similar logical trains of thought. I think I am also like juror #7 because I often try not to face the argument and instead makes jokes and fool around. I often have trouble focusing on the task at hand. For example this blog post is late because I didn't focus in class and forgot to write down my homework (sorry about that). Other jurors that I feel I connect with are the juror who is a working man (#6?). I think he has a valuable part to add to the conversation but waits until he has formed a complete thought in his head before saying it.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Liam that, like juror #7 if I have my mind made up about something I just want to get it over with and not keep discussing the details .
It's hard to say who exactly I feel like I am most like because everyone in this world has a different personality and it's hard to compare yourself to being just like another person. I feel like the Juror I am most like though is number 1. I love to keep things in order and to have a plan. He also tries to do his best and tries to make everything fair. He also wants everything to go well and for nothing to get too out of hand. Even so, I don't think I could be as patient and observing as he is because he almost doesn't talk the whole time. I think I would want to get my belief out there too. I also think that I am like Number 6. He is very respectful to the people around him and isn't afraid to stand up for himself or others. He also is very understanding in listening to other jurors. He cares about what others have to say and makes sure he has lots of information before setting up his belief.
ReplyDeleteI don't think I could be clever or put myself out there enough to be like Juror Number 8. Juror 3 and Juror 10 I think are the most different than me. I could never stand up and shout such racist comments to a group like they do.They also are so strict and strong in what they believe that they disrespect anyone who opposes them. they tend to think about themselves a lot more than others. I am also way different than Number 7. I cannot see myself simply not caring about a persons life. He again is very self centered.
I really like what Ellen said about how people you can really see people being like who they claim to be like. Henry and Matthew are very logical like Juror Number 4 and I can easily see Oren as a Number 1. I think it would be awesome to try to have our own Twelve Angry Men skit. It would be interesting to put certain people in certain parts to see how we actually feel communicating in that certain way. I think if we actually communicated and presented ourselves as a certain person, we could really see how we personally would either be similar and different than that person and whether we would say something different in the same situation.
It's hard to say which juror I'm exactly like, but I feel like I'm the most like Juror 2. Juror 2 has no real opinion. He is always going along with what the majority wants. I think I would be the same way. I wouldn't really know which side to take, so I would probably go with the majority. When I'm around my friends, I am loud and social, but around strangers, I am shy and quiet. In an argument, I would be following after the majority of the people's opinions. If I was trying to backup my opinions, my arguments wouldn't be logical. Also, I'm not the biggest fan of baseball or any sports. If I were to be on jury, It would only be once and I wouldn't have that great of experience.
ReplyDeleteI think it's easier to decide which juror I am the least like. I think Juror 10 is the least like me. He was very disrespectful especially towards 9 and I have a great amount of respect for old people. I also think he was very rude to everyone. I wouldn't ever do that. I would respect every single fellow jurors. It's their opinions and sometimes it's nice knowing people's different opinions. When I know others' opinions, I am able to form my opinion better. People like Juror 10 are very hard for me to have respect for because they are so rude.
I agree with Henry. Sometimes when I know my opinion, I will just want to get the argument over with. I think that once an argument is nine to three, there shouldn't be anymore arguing. There is no point in arguing on about all the small details when it's obvious that someone is guilty or not guilty. I don't have that much patience for long arguments.
Personally, I would like to consider myself a mix of Juror 4, and Juror 12. I prefer to lead, rather than go along with the majority, and I prefer process analysis and logic to emotional appeals. I admired 4's ability to remain detached from the case, and consider it objectively rather than from a punitive, or sympathetic standpoint.
ReplyDeleteI'd also like to think of myself as somewhat akin to 12, who uses humor to try to ease the tension, and move the discussion along. One of the best ways to make people think is to entertain them at the same time. Using deliberately absurd arguments,and keeping the tone of a discussion from become confrontational is a useful skill. I also liked the fact that he was willing to listen to both sides of the debate, and didn't feel like he had to keep a position for the sake of his pride. However, I wasn't as impressed with the fact that he didn't present his own arguments, relying on others to argue the case.